Out of cell freeze

Young Lean · **Posted:** Wed May 17, 2017 2:34 pm

CharlieKelly wrote:

Young Man wrote:

All the stuff he said, I don't feel like formatting it

If admins are enforcing rules that aren't in the rules, you should let them know it's not a rule, and if they continue to enforce it, you tell a higher up or report them.

Let me reiterate this: THERE ARE NO IMPLIED RULES (EXCEPT THE ONE EXPLICITLY STATED IMPLIED RULE). Anything else, and they are breaking the rules. The rules in !rules are the same as on the forums, so there is no reason to not read them (ffs, you accept them every time you join the server).

Are admins on our server really that bad that they enforce their own rules? I don't see this, and if I do, I tell them to knock it off. You guys should really do that too.

Admittedly I haven't been to the last few meetings, but there's been times where rules are discussed/changed and not updated into the actual rules. I'm assuming just put off until the next admin meeting.

CharlieKelly wrote:

As for the other two points, "Out of cell freeze" IS to stop rebellers. So if they are already out, they have to freeze. You do realize that "out of cell freeze" is just that, out of cell. If that is the only order, you can run around your cell all you want (thanks "No in cell orders" rule!)

Yes im fully aware out of cell freeze means freeze if you're outside of your cell, but what you're arguing is traveling mid jump is not considered moving, even though you still control yourself mid air.

CharlieKelly wrote:

This whole issue is caused by BAD wardens, and if you think this isn't cut and dry, then you are one of them.

Sadly not everyone is not up to your standards as a good warden, but that's not even the issue. The issue is people can't accept moving in the air outside of your cell is still moving (obviously some situations you can't control it), show me where it says running/crouching or specifying at all what it's restricted to. What you're eluding to is a whole different issue of wardens being shitty so they have to change the rules to make their role easier.

Caboose wrote:

Kharn wrote:

If it's not in the rules it's not a rule.

Just the other day I was in teamspeak speaking with Kharn and he said something along the lines of if an admin comes on and was told by a staff+ that there is a certain new rule or tweak of a current rule you have to accept it or take it up with the staff+ if you oppose it.

Tricky · **Posted:** Wed May 17, 2017 3:43 pm

CharlieKelly wrote:

Oh please people, just think about what you're being asked to do before complaining about it.
"Out of cell freeze". So, if you are in your cell you don't have to be frozen, you can jump out. Momentum takes you forward, and once you land you are out of cell and must freeze.
What is confusing about that?

If you want people to take a step out of their cell and freeze, I suggest you give that command before opening the cells. Or get out before rebellers can open the cells.
"Implied orders" needs to fucking die. READ THE GOD DAMN RULES PEOPLE.
I swear if anyone mentions detours or delays being implied I will stab someone

Perfection

Wolfie · **Posted:** Wed May 17, 2017 4:06 pm

I remember; If there is some things that are not stated in the rules, and people are arguing about it... usually highest Admin or Staff+ is right.. But if that Admin or Staff+ is not correct and actually not following the rules, yall should report that one.

In the end, "usually" highest ranking admin is right. Therefore, don't argue for 2 hours in the server O.o

xnyc · **Posted:** Wed May 17, 2017 10:12 pm

lol first of all i doubt staff or admin are getting involved with slaying a terrorist for rebelling. im assuming u mean CT slaying T. the orders are very simple. if you are out of cell already, u freeze as soon as the "out of cell freeze" order is completed the first time; regardless if u asked for a repeat or not. if ur not out of cell, get out of the cell and freeze; ninja step is allowed since its not specified how ur supposed to get out. if a CT kills you for ninjastepping, you should use admin chat to let them know who freekilled you for ninjastepping on a "out of cell freeze" order. if its "one step out freeze", its a direct order specifically for 1 step, not a ninja step, in which case CT should be able to kill T for ninjastepping. any admin that takes action on CT needs to know whether it is out of cell freeze or one step out freeze and also see it. without seeing it first hand or the CT admitting to it when asked, its just ur word against theirs in which case i hope u are being told to report it on the forum with demo. theres really no admins discretion involved with this type of situation.

Ray Romano · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2017 12:13 am

If you want them to not jump out of there cell, simply say "One step out and freeze" this command applies to the t's inside their cells currently and the t's that may have already left there cell through a secret. Words similar to this, came straight from Kharn himself.

McNugget · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2017 12:24 am

Ray Romano wrote:

If you want them to not jump out of there cell, simply say "One step out and freeze" this command applies to the t's inside their cells currently and the t's that may have already left there cell through a secret. Words similar to this, came straight from Kharn himself.

Agreed.

Sidenote. Holy shit Snapchat, digging your new name??

mattlikespie · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2017 12:24 am

Well nobody is wrong here but no one's right either, in my opinion anyway.

Like everyone else said, "Out of cell freeze" means exactly what it says - if you are outside of your cell when this order is given, then freeze. So the problem arises with people still in their cell. Well we know that in cell orders cannot be given before 5:00. When this order is given at the start of the round, and you are in your cell, then really it doesn't apply to you. You are free to roam around and jump and crouch all over inside your cell. However, outside of your cell is different territory. That's the "Out of cell freeze" territory. Now y'all seem to like to nit pick this rule and come up with something specific, which sucks honestly cause it changes things. But if I had to nitpick, here's the deals we've got. The way I see it, there's 4 possible ways to interpret this order/rule/whatever. I'll list the problems with each.

1) You are inside of your cell when "Out of cell freeze is given." As mentioned, this doesn't apply to you. The cell doors open, and you exit your cell. So long as you freeze after exiting, you are following the orders.
- What the server seems to be used to currently
- Loosely defined - How far can you go before you have to freeze? Can you jump? How many steps?

2) You are inside of your cell when "Out of cell freeze is given." As mentioned, this doesn't apply to you. However, since you never left your cell, it doesn't apply to you at all. Meaning, say "Out of cell freeze" is given at 5:50, but the cell doors open at 5:40. At 5:40 you rush out of your cell, with no orders given, as you weren't out of your cell so the previous order never affected you. The terrorists that were out before 5:50 are bound by the order, but you are not.
- Takes the order and its meaning literally. Cannot be disputed? (If chosen to go this route)
- Discourages wardens from using the order in the first place (1 step out and freeze instead, etc)
- This certainly isn't enforced right now. This is a drastic change.
- CTs will easily lose control of the Terrorists if the Warden cannot give proper orders

3) You are inside of your cell when "Out of cell freeze is given." As mentioned, this doesn't apply to you. Outside of your cell is frozen territory. So the instant you decide to leave your cell, you've got to freeze. I think it's pretty clear what is considered inside of your cell and what is considered outside. To be bound by this territory, you must take one step into it. If you jump out of your cell, you are moving. It's simple. Hell freeze is even defined in the rules. "Freeze means: do not move along the X, Y, Z axis of the game. Crouching is exempt." Jumping out of your cell constitutes a changing Y and either a changing X or Z value, or all three. You definitely aren't frozen. Simply put, your only options are A) Stay in your cell until further orders, or B) Take one step out.
- Takes away people jumping out of their cell (for no reason), and works towards removing the "Ninja steps are allowed/implied" misconception
- Somewhat loosely defined, but not as much as scenario 1

4) A further expansion of the above scenario. Well to nitpick further, one could argue that taking that one small step at all is still moving along the axis. So "Out of cell freeze" means that if this order is given, you cannot leave your cell at all, as leaving it means you are moving.
- Most clearly defined, no room for error if CTs see anyone moving outside of their cell, exiting their cell, etc. and can kill them.
- Not currently used. This is a drastic change

When Dandy asked me, I told him scenario 3. However, since this seems to be a problem, and this is a discussion, here are my cards. Correct me if I am wrong, but I see no other scenarios. I disagree with scenarios 1 and 2. As I mentioned, I told Dandy scenario 3, and that would be my official response to the interpretation of the order. However, for the sake of discussion and the upcoming admin meeting, my favorite would be scenario 4. It can't be disputed, and it removes all confusion. Now this order is given literally every round - basically a rule change in terms of changing the meaning of the order to that. The admin meeting is ideal - as all admins (literally, cause if you don't show up you lose admin anyway) are there so any new interpretations and rules are laid out for them to hear. I'd like to hear your thoughts to my reply here, and on scenario 4.

And a sidenote - Nothing is implied unless it says in the rules.

OhhDandy · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2017 5:05 am

As I said before, this is more than the interpretation of the order, it's also something to be looked at in terms of what staff are willing to punish for, as they have slain CT's who have killed ninja steppers.
Personally, and like many others, ONE action, in this case a jump from moving (in cell) to stationary (out of cell) is counted as one movement, just like a regular step, as it has a threshold distance to which can be achieved.
The way you're looking at it is, as soon as we leave our cell we are still physically moving as that is the nature of the jump and the curvature from point A to B is movement, but the way I see it is although that is the case, that movement is not controlled past the 'jump'.
This could further argue that any uncontrolled movement, such as picking up guns or models moving due to recognition is a liable reason to kill.
When taking into consideration the rules and what is there, nothing is said about ninja stepping in whole. The only reason people would assume that it's not allowed on a defined order is because it's not said.
On undefined orders, much like "go to the box", when there are multiple boxes, the head room for other options is available and will likely be taken but then it's a matter of the loosely defined "don't be a smart ass" rule which negates any independent options which in essence probably aren't being a smart ass, so is the ninja step turning into a "smart ass" action when really all it is, is an edge to rebel if possible which if anything should be encouraged.

Young Lean · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2017 6:36 am

OhhDandy wrote:

Personally, and like many others, ONE action, in this case a jump from moving (in cell) to stationary (out of cell) is counted as one movement, just like a regular step, as it has a threshold distance to which can be achieved.
The way you're looking at it is, as soon as we leave our cell we are still physically moving as that is the nature of the jump and the curvature from point A to B is movement, but the way I see it is although that is the case, that movement is not controlled past the 'jump'.
This could further argue that any uncontrolled movement, such as picking up guns or models moving due to recognition is a liable reason to kill.

That's a bit rediculous, if crouching isn't unfreezing why would picking up guns or your model moving be?
Movement past the jump is still controlled, freeze doesn't just mean don't touch your keyboard.

Mr.GoldGames · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2017 6:53 am

CharlieKelly wrote:

Oh please people, just think about what you're being asked to do before complaining about it.
"Out of cell freeze". So, if you are in your cell you don't have to be frozen, you can jump out. Momentum takes you forward, and once you land you are out of cell and must freeze.
What is confusing about that?

If you want people to take a step out of their cell and freeze, I suggest you give that command before opening the cells. Or get out before rebellers can open the cells.
"Implied orders" needs to fucking die. READ THE GOD DAMN RULES PEOPLE.
I swear if anyone mentions detours or delays being implied I will stab someone

This.

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