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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Central wrote:
Cooper wrote:
BriBee wrote:
AJtheGreyBeard025 wrote:
Guards run the map, should be on the CTs to expand the warday at that point technically both sides aren’t progressing the round. I’m with cooper that the rule needs to take out that part and make CTs expand at least. Or by contrast force both sides to expand to be at a certain part of the map by a certain time.


Wardays are one of the only days CT's have to kill T's without any repercussions. Why should they be forced to expand when theirs only one of them left and 4 T's. The rule makes it so that its a fairer playing field.....

So you are saying it should be the T’s responsibility to progress the round? If your argument is that it makes it “fair” is it really that much more “fair” for the T’s to have to run in and die to CT’s holding angles with AWPs? The CT’s called the warday under their own terms so they should have some sort of credibility in progressing the round when the time comes, you are saying they shouldn’t have to leave because it’s the only time they can kill T’s without repercussions, so why would it be any more fair for the T’s to have to push a location that the CTs themselves chose and get second picks on guns? Numbers shouldn’t even play a factor because a good CT team holding strong angles with AWPs can easily level the playing field in terms of numbers if not completely put it in their favor. This isn’t even really fairness, fairness would be them having to push because they didn’t perform well, not punishing the T’s cause they did better. We might as well give out participation trophies instead of LR just so it’s “fair”.

Is it “fair” to the person who died at the start of the round to have to wait 5 minutes because of this rule? This rule strongly discourages round progression and even if admins try to do something it’s always going to slow things down regardless

"A number shouldn't play a factor"

Quote:
War days will expand at 3:30 every time. CT’s must leave warzone if CTs outnumber the terrorists. CTs can use secrets after expansion.


If the CT team who are alive outnumber the Ts, for example, 3 alive CTs, 1 T, then CTs are forced to expand the warday. If the Ts outweighs the CTs, for instance 5 Ts, 3 CTs then they shouldn't be forced to leave warzone until/unless it becomes CTs outnumber Ts.

This rule has been here since the last admin meeting, and will only be changed in the next admin meeting.

I’m not really sure why you just requoted the rule but I guess I can repeat my reasoning why the rule is stupid. The CTs called the war and played the advantage of getting to go to their chosen location and hold angles on pushing T’s, they should also be the ones responsible for progressing it. Bribee’s argument was rhat it wasn’t “fair” to make the outnumbered CTs push, but by definition this would be fair. The CTs called the war under their conditions, if they performed poorly it would be fair to make them push, it wouldn’t be fair however to punish the T’s because they performed welll. I’m not sure if you actually read my post based on your response but the analogy I used before was “We might as well give out participation trophies instead of LR so it’s “fair”. Numbers are irrelevant because the CTs brought the war upon themselves and had the opportunity to get the first choice of weapons and got the choice of where they wanted to hold, why not hold them accountable for their choices?

On top of all this the rule generally goes against other rules (ex. the one that says the round must progress) and even disincentivizes CTs killing T’s in order to keep the ratio in their favor and generally goes against the nature of the warday.

Also I don’t think anybody was talking about removing this right here and now, pretty much everyone from what I see wants it to be removed at the next admin meeting.


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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
cooper;
-it is not just CT's job to progress the round it is only stated that admins must ensure the round progress, this means it applies to both T and CT. You are conflating that with "CT's must play their role" which in a warday is only specified to being the last Team standing. The only rule right now that makes CT's have to expand is the 3:30 rule.
-again being "fair" should have nothing to do with the argument as the gamemode is not intended to be 50/50 fair to begin with. The only time "fairness" is involved is the lazy and poorly worded extension of the rule "no hacking, scripts, or anything considered unfair" which is only in regards to players not rules so it is still irrelevant.

Simplistic;
-A better revison of this rule would be "Ct's must expand warday within {4:30-3:00} and must leave warday by {3:00}"
this would:
+give the CT's back their unpredictable expansion advantage
+prevent T's from waiting in tele's until after CT's must leave as CT team can have players check tele entry points while holding tele exits as well
+prevent CT's from waiting out the round like cowards
+encourage T's to take initiative when attacking in start of round as they will only be guaranteed to know the CT's position for 1.5min

I would refrain from responding to specific points like this if you are just gonna twist the meaning or try to apply it to something which isn’t even relevant in the situation. You also clearly don’t know the difference between FAIR and EQUAL by the repeated use of “50/50”. Everyone having 50/50 odds is EQUAL, having different odds based on your role and skill is FAIR. Nobody was even referring to the “unfair rule” either. The game mode is naturally FAIR because of roles and skill and the only way to really make it unfair is making everything EQUAL (or allow cheats/exploits/mechanics which ruin RP) which nobody is suggesting, so pretty much all your related responses are either wrong by definition or a strawman.

I never was trying to say the CTs had to expand because of their role, but they are the ones responsible for the war in the first plce and did get multiple chances to overcome their number disadvantage (location, weapon choice, angles, strategy etc) so they should be the ones held accountable,if they do bad the T’s shouldn’t be forced to play at a disadvantage because they did well. Like I said the rule just makes other rules harder to enforce and even can incentivize CTs to not kill Ts so they don’t have to expand and keep their advantage.

In response to your suggestion, like Term said the T’s will still camp or adapt to the new rule and wait to teleport later, CTs will also tend to wait till the last minute as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Central wrote:

"because its the only rule that relates to it, if you think otherwise by all means state your case?"
I already quoted the rule somewhere in this topic, but here is it again:
thats the exact rule i mentioned... so you dont disagree there

Quote:
War days will expand at 3:30 every time. CT’s must leave warzone if CTs outnumber the terrorists. CTs can use secrets after expansion.

War days expands 3:30 everytime. Meaning the area of warzone expands to everywhere else on the map, including secrets. CTs are only forced to leave and expand warday if they outnumber the Ts who are alive. On the other hand, if the Ts outnumber the CTs, they are not forced to expand and leave warzone, not at all. Why? Because again, it's going to create a situation where the Ts are most likely to win, depending on the level of luck and skill the CT has. I know each team has its own perks, and really isn't supposed to be a 50/50 gameplay, but this is the rule.

i think you really must have misunderstood this. I'm saying allowing warday to expand give CT's a chance to kill T's waiting to jump into a secret after CT's leave i.e. pool to soccer secret. This is just a tactical option opened up to the CT's it in no way impacts what the T's can or cannot do and im not sure why you think it would please explain.
It's either me being blind, or you wording it incorrectly. I think you worded it incorrectly. To me, you said that to make Ts wait until expansion to be able to enter secrets - you might have meant something else, but that is what I saw from what you put.
its definity you thats blind lol, i said that those would be the affects the rule would have on the server please go back and read the original post.

i think you should reword your sentance for me becuase its kind of confusing. i think your trying to say that CT's can refuse to leave because its unfair or at least they should be allowed to but as i said that is'it really a relevant argument as the gamemode is not designed to be 50/50 fair in the first place. please reword this as it does'it make very much sense to me.
Alright - thanks for telling me. All I was saying, is that why force the CTs to expand when they're outnumbered. By then, the Ts should know they have the tactical advantage, and they can easily rush the CT and having a greater chance to win if they all rush, like entering the teleporter from showers > soccer. Like, it's pretty easy to think and imagine the scenario. But I understand that if the Ts just stick around in secrets, it delays the round, but again, refer to the rule.

the reason they have to expand is because this is still somewhat an RP server and its always up to CT's to regain control of map. there should'it be any "unfairness" point to make as like i said, this gamemode is not ment to be 50/50 fair as it is not just a tdm i.e different starting weapons, health, team sizes.
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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Cooper wrote:
Quote:
cooper;
-it is not just CT's job to progress the round it is only stated that admins must ensure the round progress, this means it applies to both T and CT. You are conflating that with "CT's must play their role" which in a warday is only specified to being the last Team standing. The only rule right now that makes CT's have to expand is the 3:30 rule.
-again being "fair" should have nothing to do with the argument as the gamemode is not intended to be 50/50 fair to begin with. The only time "fairness" is involved is the lazy and poorly worded extension of the rule "no hacking, scripts, or anything considered unfair" which is only in regards to players not rules so it is still irrelevant.

Simplistic;
-A better revison of this rule would be "Ct's must expand warday within {4:30-3:00} and must leave warday by {3:00}"
this would:
+give the CT's back their unpredictable expansion advantage
+prevent T's from waiting in tele's until after CT's must leave as CT team can have players check tele entry points while holding tele exits as well
+prevent CT's from waiting out the round like cowards
+encourage T's to take initiative when attacking in start of round as they will only be guaranteed to know the CT's position for 1.5min



I never was trying to say the CTs had to expand because of their role, but they are the ones responsible for the war in the first plce and did get multiple chances to overcome their number disadvantage (location, weapon choice, angles, strategy etc) so they should be the ones held accountable,if they do bad the T’s shouldn’t be forced to play at a disadvantage because they did well.
there is no rule or rp reason to support that argument, only your person preference so im gonna have to disregard this

Like I said the rule just makes other rules harder to enforce and even can incentivize CTs to not kill Ts so they don’t have to expand and keep their advantage.
That is why i proposed a revision among other reasons, i dont know what you disagree with here...

In response to your suggestion, like Term said the T’s will still camp or adapt to the new rule and wait to teleport later
i think you should read terms post again because he actually agrees with my point "i do agree it would give a bigger time frame in which they can try and surprise the T's camping the exits and such." and the whole idea is to give CT's a larger time frame to deal with this, not prevent the tactic entirely. if you disagree please explain why you think the revision would be worse than what we have no or by all means offer up your own idea.

CTs will also tend to wait till the last minute as well.
not saying it will get rid of it entirely but it will incentivise them to use other tactics as well. either way tho its not a argument against the rule so i dont know why you would include it in the first place as it would'it create any problems we dont already have.


fyi im just gonna cut out all irreverent information from your post as most of it just had personal attacks and were not points to argue.

i honestly dont really see any reason not to revise the rule to what i suggested based off of what you wrote.
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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Mr. Simplistic wrote:
Cooper wrote:
Quote:
cooper;
-it is not just CT's job to progress the round it is only stated that admins must ensure the round progress, this means it applies to both T and CT. You are conflating that with "CT's must play their role" which in a warday is only specified to being the last Team standing. The only rule right now that makes CT's have to expand is the 3:30 rule.
-again being "fair" should have nothing to do with the argument as the gamemode is not intended to be 50/50 fair to begin with. The only time "fairness" is involved is the lazy and poorly worded extension of the rule "no hacking, scripts, or anything considered unfair" which is only in regards to players not rules so it is still irrelevant.

Simplistic;
-A better revison of this rule would be "Ct's must expand warday within {4:30-3:00} and must leave warday by {3:00}"
this would:
+give the CT's back their unpredictable expansion advantage
+prevent T's from waiting in tele's until after CT's must leave as CT team can have players check tele entry points while holding tele exits as well
+prevent CT's from waiting out the round like cowards
+encourage T's to take initiative when attacking in start of round as they will only be guaranteed to know the CT's position for 1.5min



I never was trying to say the CTs had to expand because of their role, but they are the ones responsible for the war in the first plce and did get multiple chances to overcome their number disadvantage (location, weapon choice, angles, strategy etc) so they should be the ones held accountable,if they do bad the T’s shouldn’t be forced to play at a disadvantage because they did well.
there is no rule or rp reason to support that argument, only your person preference so im gonna have to disregard this

Like I said the rule just makes other rules harder to enforce and even can incentivize CTs to not kill Ts so they don’t have to expand and keep their advantage.
That is why i proposed a revision among other reasons, i dont know what you disagree with here...

In response to your suggestion, like Term said the T’s will still camp or adapt to the new rule and wait to teleport later
i think you should read terms post again because he actually agrees with my point "i do agree it would give a bigger time frame in which they can try and surprise the T's camping the exits and such." and the whole idea is to give CT's a larger time frame to deal with this, not prevent the tactic entirely. if you disagree please explain why you think the revision would be worse than what we have no or by all means offer up your own idea.

CTs will also tend to wait till the last minute as well.
not saying it will get rid of it entirely but it will incentivise them to use other tactics as well. either way tho its not a argument against the rule so i dont know why you would include it in the first place as it would'it create any problems we dont already have.


fyi im just gonna cut out all irreverent information from your post as most of it just had personal attacks and were not points to argue.

i honestly dont really see any reason not to revise the rule to what i suggested based off of what you wrote.

Calling out faulty arguments and fallacious statements is not a personal attack, the part you “cut out” was addressing points that were objectively wrong and or irrelevant. Majority of your original post was talking about “fairness” but what you were defining as “fairness” is actually “equallity”, but we can just follow your red herring and set this aside.

The rule says CTs have to expand unless outnumbered, so yes there is a rule saying they have to be the ones to expand. I am specifically arguing about removing the “outnumbered clause” because its against the nature of wardays (CTs killing Ts and vice versa), makes other rules harder to enforce (ex making sure the round progresses), rewards bad play while punishing good play, and just adds an unecessary layer of confusion for not only players but admins as well. My reasoning was the numbers shouldn’t matter because they called the war willingly, they knew what they were getting into and they should have to suffer the consequences instead of making things more difficult for everyone.

Your revision has a lot of problems with it like I already said and not much would change, it’s pretty easy to disagree with. I really don’t know why this change was even voted in in the first place because I don’t recall there being much demand for it in the first place, the original rule was fine.

Term didn’t completely agree with your post, he said he thought T’s would still camp exits and such regardless which is what I was agreeing with. Just because he says he agrees doesn’t mean he agrees in every single aspect, he clearly pointed out areas where your suggestion would be weak or wouldn’t change much multiple times (even if he thought it could still be somewhat effective). I already gave you my ideas, T’s will still camp, CTs will put off expanding as long as they can, won’t change much outside of forced expansion which isn’t the only issue people have, the outnumbered part should be removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Best solution.... No more wardays!? I personally consider wardays to be free days anyways.
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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:59 pm 
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We've had this exact discussion a few times, and don't think it'll change anytime soon (on the T's behalf that is)
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=29026&hilit=beacons&start=0
viewtopic.php?f=148&t=31544&hilit=warday&start=0

Natsu wrote:
I feel the T's should be ACTIVELY going towards the warday area to progress the round. Otherwise what's the point of a warday? This completely and utterly defeats the purpose by a long mile because this gives the T's the option to just sit and wait till 3:30. Which then becomes a reverse warday almost because then the T's can be all in position for the CT's to come out and then kill them after the warday expands. This to me doesn't seem right at all... And not only to mention but it's literally every warday where the T's delay. It also causes the server to decrease in population due to getting bored from waiting so long for next round after they die. Wardays i feel should be setup where it expands at 3:30 which is a good time and also a good rule because this prevents crappy wardens to expand too early or too late, so that's not really a bad thing it's just how the T's are allowed to delay a special day like that to go wander off and wait till the CT's make a move. What you guys think? Im just throwing my opinion out there so please don't hate on this topic. :)

Let me just start by saying that CT's are given as much of an advantage as the terrorists are. How often do you see the CT side call war day in soccer & garage, and lose when in war day zone?

Generally speaking, the percentage of T's that go into soccer / garage straightaway are immediately shutdown due to the CT's having the upper hand in terms of "who has the better angle". Whereas, normally, the few times the T's have the edge over the CT's is when the CT either misses their first shot and/or when there are multiple T's peeking an angle (other few possibilities as well i.e outnumbering, etc). Short said, CT's are given the advantage until war day expands which lessens their chance of surviving depending on whether the T's outnumber the CT's or not, and whether or not they go outside war zone. It's the root cause as to why T's don't immediately head into war zone neither is there a rule that's suggests them to do so. This being the case, like you had previously mentioned, once the war day expands, the T's are now given the advantage outside of war zone just like the CT's had inside war zone as they're now able to play by "who has the better angle".

Note war day's are called by the CT's *important notice*. They are the ones who call the war day, they are the ones who have to continue & progress the war day.

THIS DOESN'T MEAN THE TERRORIST'S DON'T HAVE TO PROGRESS THE ROUND ← p a y a t t e n t i o n t o t h i s

Jailbreak Rules wrote:
66 War days will expand at 3:30 every time. CT’s must leave warzone if CTs outnumber the terrorists. CTs can use secrets after expansion. Jail Break General

Don't really remember when this was added to the rule, but this it doesn't apply much to the OP post primarily because as much as this rule [protects] (said loosely) the CT's from being outnumbered therefore shot & killed. Won't change the fact that these terrorists are well, still free to hide stay outside war zone as needed be as there is no rule that suggests that the terrorists are to do so. Adding this bit, "CT’s must leave warzone if CTs outnumber the terrorists" is simply counter-intuitive and contradicting; more the less, it just complicates whenever a war day takes place in whole. What is expected of the counter-terrorists & terrorists (and admins in that matter) once the terrorists outnumber counter terrorist? Do the terrorists now have to advance the war day? Answer is simple as said, no, it doesn't insinuate that because these CT's are now "protected" by this rule, the reigns of the how the war day advances gets handed to the T's. Whether the war day progresses or not is held to the counter terrorists. But now what? How does the war day progress without interfering between this two? not rhetorical btw, stil curious if there a apt. way of working around this so yea, respond to me

Jailbreak Rules wrote:
47 You must make sure the round progresses. Admin Guidelines

Now this rule is VERY important, so pay attention to it. Regardless of whether it is bestowed upon an admin to make sure the round progresses, it is still hand-in-hand that both parties (terrorists and counter-terrorists) are to progress the round which includes war day (days). Although we can more than likely find an alternative to balance these two, this is what should be referenced when speaking of "how to progress a war day: 101". Initially, both teams should be progressing the round, but that doesn't mean the terrorists have to expand (into) the war day. Two very different subjects, keep in mind, yet the two play side-by-side.

BriBee wrote:
AJtheGreyBeard025 wrote:
Guards run the map, should be on the CTs to expand the warday at that point technically both sides aren’t progressing the round. I’m with cooper that the rule needs to take out that part and make CTs expand at least. Or by contrast force both sides to expand to be at a certain part of the map by a certain time.


Wardays are one of the only days CT's have to kill T's without any repercussions. Why should they be forced to expand when theirs only one of them left and 4 T's. The rule makes it so that its a fairer playing field.....

War days aren't there so CT's can go out of their way to "kill T's without any repercussions". CT's call war day's without any other possible course of action determined by the terrorist side.

The terrorists don't have any option except kill or be killed. They shouldn't be the ones to expand or progress the war day for that matter.

The rule should be re-addressed / expressed differently in a Mootiny sort of way. But let's start by taking out "CT’s must leave warzone if CTs outnumber the terrorists", and leaving the rule as 66 War days will expand at 3:30 every time. CTs can use secrets after expansion. Jail Break General until further notice. There's no need to have any "CT's must expand war day / be out of war zone by 3:30" or remotely similar when we have "47 You must make sure the round progresses. Admin Guidelines". Bear in mind, this rule doesn't only apply to admins. It applies to the whole server which includes both terrorists and counter-terrorists, id est, war days further tune.

high key idk what anyone else said because i didnt really read through the rest of the posts, so if anything counteracts, oh well, my post is also quite messy so if something don' sound right im blaming it on being sleep deprived

Going to add this for future's sake:
Needy wrote:
To an extent, an admin is allowed to beacon either team evenhandedly. For instance, on a war day, if there are two CTs left alive still in war day zone even after the war day had expanded, meanwhile, there are 2 to 3 T's left alive sitting in either vent / secret initially delaying the round with still 3 minutes on the clock an admin should tell the player-base to progress the round as a war day should be fast paced and it's the admins job to make sure the round progresses. Also, this can include either team, terrorist or counter-terrorist, if they (either team) starts moving around. Great. No beacon. As the round is then progressing. After all, it should be the CT's job to pursue their role as they were the ones who had called the war day in the first place and should move forward with it.

Now if they continue to not progress the round (both players / teams are just sitting in corners) then it's appropriate for an admin to beacon both teams / players to advance the round. And just to add, an admin still has to make sure each round is fair for all players during which if there are possibly 5 CT's left with one T then of course an admin shouldn't be throwing any beacons on either team as it'd only be giving the CT team the advantage. Now as for a regular day, if there are no more non-rebelling T's left alive on which there is only one T left rebelling that's possibly camping secrets then as long as the CTs are pursing their role / searching for the last T then the round is still progressing. Not necessary for an admin to beacon anyone neither should it ever be as if the CT doesn't find the T in time it's their fault. Not the T's.

Most of this all depends on what is happening at that current moment. There isn't necessarily a right or wrong, per se. As for the beacons, they mainly fall into play on a war day.

Aside from a war day, it's initially the CT's responsibility to pursue the rebelling T rather than the terrorists.

Previous posts for reference purposes:
Needy wrote:
For sure, basically the rule enforces the CT's out when war day expands being that they're the ones who originally called the war day in the first place, they're the ones who are going to have to expand it, no sitting in war day zone when T's are hiding out because initially it's not their fault that the war day was called. So, they're allowed to play how they want & if they wanna hide the whole war day and be a puuuuuuusy so be it but if the CT's aren't going anywhere(?) That'd probably be when you an admin should slap them to get out of there & find whichever T's are hiding; thankfully the "CTs may use secrets after expansion" helps quite a bit now.
Needy wrote:
Whether the T's outnumber the CT's or vice versa one of the two sides will push, normally i.e. How i take as progressing is as long as one of the two sides is doing something that is making progress in terms of lowering the number of players left on the board then it's progressing, CT's shouldn't need to expand and/or leave war day zone when a whole ton of T's are right out front. Neither are they forced to advance through one exit / entrance, there is generally multiple exits so it won't be that they have a complete unfair advantage. But if neither teams happen to push, then of course, there are multiple scenarios that could go along with war day's as say the ratio of T's to CT's are higher, just about all the T's are hiding away from war day zone. War day already expanded, CT's should be the one's advancing. What about if the T's outnumber the CT's but the T's are camping right out front the entrance / exit of the war day zone, if CT('s) don't push after war day has expanded and both parties are sitting, waiting for each other. Would normally just say "someone progress the round". Doesn't have to mean that the CT's are strained to expand, but to be fair, simply saying that a team and/or player will do something. Players don't have that much patience to wait a whole 3 minutes for the round to just end. But really all it comes down to is what the current status is, and roll in w common sense of how the round should be played out, just keep it fair to the whole player base.

tl;dr it's under debate that T's are needed to expand the war day. The CT's called it, it's part of their role to progress the war day.
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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:01 am 
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Cooper wrote:
Mr. Simplistic wrote:
Cooper wrote:
Quote:
cooper;
-it is not just CT's job to progress the round it is only stated that admins must ensure the round progress, this means it applies to both T and CT. You are conflating that with "CT's must play their role" which in a warday is only specified to being the last Team standing. The only rule right now that makes CT's have to expand is the 3:30 rule.
-again being "fair" should have nothing to do with the argument as the gamemode is not intended to be 50/50 fair to begin with. The only time "fairness" is involved is the lazy and poorly worded extension of the rule "no hacking, scripts, or anything considered unfair" which is only in regards to players not rules so it is still irrelevant.

Simplistic;
-A better revison of this rule would be "Ct's must expand warday within {4:30-3:00} and must leave warday by {3:00}"
this would:
+give the CT's back their unpredictable expansion advantage
+prevent T's from waiting in tele's until after CT's must leave as CT team can have players check tele entry points while holding tele exits as well
+prevent CT's from waiting out the round like cowards
+encourage T's to take initiative when attacking in start of round as they will only be guaranteed to know the CT's position for 1.5min



I never was trying to say the CTs had to expand because of their role, but they are the ones responsible for the war in the first plce and did get multiple chances to overcome their number disadvantage (location, weapon choice, angles, strategy etc) so they should be the ones held accountable,if they do bad the T’s shouldn’t be forced to play at a disadvantage because they did well.
there is no rule or rp reason to support that argument, only your person preference so im gonna have to disregard this

Like I said the rule just makes other rules harder to enforce and even can incentivize CTs to not kill Ts so they don’t have to expand and keep their advantage.
That is why i proposed a revision among other reasons, i dont know what you disagree with here...

In response to your suggestion, like Term said the T’s will still camp or adapt to the new rule and wait to teleport later
i think you should read terms post again because he actually agrees with my point "i do agree it would give a bigger time frame in which they can try and surprise the T's camping the exits and such." and the whole idea is to give CT's a larger time frame to deal with this, not prevent the tactic entirely. if you disagree please explain why you think the revision would be worse than what we have no or by all means offer up your own idea.

CTs will also tend to wait till the last minute as well.
not saying it will get rid of it entirely but it will incentivise them to use other tactics as well. either way tho its not a argument against the rule so i dont know why you would include it in the first place as it would'it create any problems we dont already have.


fyi im just gonna cut out all irreverent information from your post as most of it just had personal attacks and were not points to argue.

i honestly dont really see any reason not to revise the rule to what i suggested based off of what you wrote.

Calling out faulty arguments and fallacious statements is not a personal attack, the part you “cut out” was addressing points that were objectively wrong and or irrelevant. Majority of your original post was talking about “fairness” but what you were defining as “fairness” is actually “equallity”, but we can just follow your red herring and set this aside.

The rule says CTs have to expand unless outnumbered, so yes there is a rule saying they have to be the ones to expand. I am specifically arguing about removing the “outnumbered clause” because its against the nature of wardays (CTs killing Ts and vice versa), makes other rules harder to enforce (ex making sure the round progresses), rewards bad play while punishing good play, and just adds an unecessary layer of confusion for not only players but admins as well. My reasoning was the numbers shouldn’t matter because they called the war willingly, they knew what they were getting into and they should have to suffer the consequences instead of making things more difficult for everyone.

Your revision has a lot of problems with it like I already said and not much would change, it’s pretty easy to disagree with. I really don’t know why this change was even voted in in the first place because I don’t recall there being much demand for it in the first place, the original rule was fine.

Term didn’t completely agree with your post, he said he thought T’s would still camp exits and such regardless which is what I was agreeing with. Just because he says he agrees doesn’t mean he agrees in every single aspect, he clearly pointed out areas where your suggestion would be weak or wouldn’t change much multiple times (even if he thought it could still be somewhat effective). I already gave you my ideas, T’s will still camp, CTs will put off expanding as long as they can, won’t change much outside of forced expansion which isn’t the only issue people have, the outnumbered part should be removed.

I dont want to sound rude but honestly it seems you dont understand what an argument is or your just here for the sake of disagreeing.

You keep arguing with me that the outnumbered rule should be gone and i've given reasons why I agree so idk what your arguing with there.

You still haven't given an argument as to why we should not revise the rule as i suggested, instead you just ignored all the reasons i gave as to it would improve the game and said "nah cts are bad they wont take advantage of that" which makes no sense as any good ct player would understand the benefits it provides. And regardless of that by your own argument the revision would not have any negative effects so there would be no reason not to at least try the revised version.
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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:14 am 
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i personally think the "fairness" or "equality" of the game plays a role here.... will come back later on

the rule was made to stop CT's from camping the whole round in warzone, and i think we can all agree it helps partially but also has a HUGE unforseen result of CT's camping the warzone because they don't outnumber the T's.

i think that that is what is causing this whole situation since people disagree on what should be done in forms of revising the rule or enforcing it properly
and i see both possibilities working out as follows:

1) REVISION: we revise the rule to something different which will make sure CT's have no ooportunity to stay in warzone the entire round and forces them to leave and hunt the T's. aboviously giving them a timeframe in which they are able/forced to expand. reasons are stated by simplistic and i gave my thoughts about those alreadyso read up if interested

2) ENFORCING: u can give up multiple rules which would force admins and players to leave warzone and to make CT's leave warzone so the round progresses and such. yet there will be heavy debate about the rules being applied and alot of players will argue heavily about them having to expand when there are more T's than CT's and it will cause alot of discussion and hostility in the server. even if u would say "u need to mute those players and they need to take it private" but that will still cause hostility and anger with the players and i don't believe that is what we want, right?

my conclusion is that the best way to solve this is to change the rule just a little bit so it fits in more with the purpose we tried to give it and try to make it as loop-hole free as possible. of course both ideas have advantages and disadvantages but atleast this could be solved and we could try to focus on more important things like the fun of the players and having FAIR AND EQUAL games for everybody

because that is what people want, fair and equal gameplay, as in why should T's be forced to push the CT's when CT's called the warday? why would they have to die? sure it's a discussion about skill and such but the only part of that discussion that applies here is the part where T's shouldn't push CT's when they didn't chose to have a warday
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 Post subject: Re: Jailbreak Wardays...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:44 am 
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Tricky wrote:
Best solution.... No more wardays!? I personally consider wardays to be free days anyways.

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